Subaru Impreza (New) or Honda Civic 2.0 or Toyota Altis (Upcoming)

**[archie]** · March 12th, 2008 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by jun_mazda

maganda yung subaru pero ung 4wd nito ay overrated.

sa tingin niyo 2.0 n/a 150bhp kailangan ng 4wd dba parang hirap ang makina dyan? kung dito lang naman sa city ka magdadrive dba mo naman papakinabangan yung 4wd nito, pero kung sa mountain pass ibang usapan na yan.

sir AFAIK, when you have a 4wd car it maximizes the power of the engine. hindi kaladkad yung rear wheels. with its engine na aluminum block and head, the power to weight ratio is great.

**niky** · March 13th, 2008 02:38 PM

Only if the engine has the power to overwhelm the tires. And with just 2 liters and this much weight, that's notgoingtohappen.com For a front-driver in this weight class to overwhelm its tires, it needs at least 200 hp. Or better yet, at least 200 ft-lbs of torque.

I'm pushing close to 170-180 hp, but I don't have enough torque to overwhelm the tires except on the racetrack. It's only in racing conditions that the AWD will prove to be a big factor... as it allows for less mid-corner understeer (though corner entry and corner exit understeer will still be similar) and even then, you have to balance the extra grip with the penalty of extra weight.

That's why front-wheel drive cars are still quicker than Subies and Evos on the BRC. It's cost vs. gain. And the cost of weight doesn't equal the gain in handling... not on such a tight course.

**Jun aka Pekto** · March 13th, 2008 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by niky

That's why front-wheel drive cars are still quicker than Subies and Evos on the BRC. It's cost vs. gain. And the cost of weight doesn't equal the gain in handling... not on such a tight course.

An AWD system adds about 300 lbs average to the weight of the car. That's like having 2 extra people riding with you which in a car with a small engine, is a big disadvantage.

**pup2** · March 14th, 2008 05:42 AM

Madali naman yata pataasin yung HP ng Impreza -- dun mahilig yung mga modders. Ewan ko lang yung torque kung natataas and how much.

Rough roads aside, sa pogi points lamang ng malaki yung Impreza -- can't really tell it apart from the Rex except from the front.

**[archie]** · March 15th, 2008 05:38 PM

if i was to compare civic altis and the impreza in an everyday use, impreza will certainly be more fun to drive. from a sedan, they converted the new one to a hatchback to lessen the weight. the 4wd will be easier to handle (less understir) than fwd. even if you have extra weight because of the 4wd, its for the everyday use and not meant to be raced on the tracks.

if you put in a turbo kit and other mods to the impreza then its a different story.

**Jun aka Pekto** · March 16th, 2008 06:04 AM

Is there a side by side comparo of the 3 somewhere?

Some random thoughts going on in my head:

- Subaru 4-cylinders (meaning the N/A ones) have the thirst of a V6 minus the hp. The 2.5i (170hp) has a gas mileage of (city/hwy) 20/27. Even the 3.3L (235hp) V6 of my car gets 20/30. The turbo 2.5L gets even less. But at least the turbo versions have quick acceleration to compensate for the lousy gas mileage. I'm not sure what the gas mileage of the 2.0 (148hp) is. But, I doubt it can match or even approach the 26/34 of the 1.8L Civic.

- The N/A Impreza probably has a much softer suspension than the WRX. As far as handling goes, it might as well be a totally different car. Subaru isn't like Honda which tends to keep the same suspension within the same model line (eg the Accord 4-cyl and Accord V6). AWD isn't going to compensate for a soft suspension. Sure, AWD will keep the tires pointed in the right direction. But, what's the point if the rest of the car wants to go the other way because of the soft suspension? I think the Civic's still the more agile car.

On the other hand......
- Subaru's near the top when it comes to safety. Peace of mind alone may compensate for the Impreza's inferior fuel economy.

- Although I don't care much for AWD except in the snow, if it's free, I'll take it. It's standard on the Impreza. That's a plus.

As for the Civic..... There's good reasons why so many people choose it and it's not just because of a "me-too" attitude. Same goes for the Toyota.

**pup2** · March 16th, 2008 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Jun aka Pekto

Is there a side by side comparo of the 3 somewhere?

Some random thoughts going on in my head:

- Subaru 4-cylinders (meaning the N/A ones) have the thirst of a V6 minus the hp. The 2.5i (170hp) has a gas mileage of (city/hwy) 20/27. Even the 3.3L (235hp) V6 of my car gets 20/30. The turbo 2.5L gets even less. But at least the turbo versions have quick acceleration to compensate for the lousy gas mileage. I'm not sure what the gas mileage of the 2.0 (148hp) is. But, I doubt it can match or even approach the 26/34 of the 1.8L Civic.

- The N/A Impreza probably has a much softer suspension than the WRX. As far as handling goes, it might as well be a totally different car. Subaru isn't like Honda which tends to keep the same suspension within the same model line (eg the Accord 4-cyl and Accord V6). AWD isn't going to compensate for a soft suspension. Sure, AWD will keep the tires pointed in the right direction. But, what's the point if the rest of the car wants to go the other way because of the soft suspension? I think the Civic's still the more agile car.

On the other hand......
- Subaru's near the top when it comes to safety. Peace of mind alone may compensate for the Impreza's inferior fuel economy.

- Although I don't care much for AWD except in the snow, if it's free, I'll take it. It's standard on the Impreza. That's a plus.

As for the Civic..... There's good reasons why so many people choose it and it's not just because of a "me-too" attitude. Same goes for the Toyota.

hehe. Baka kaya it's hard to tell whether NA or Turbo yung mga Subaru -- sinasadya. I've HAD a Civic. It was super-efficient and reliable. The Toyota was similar (if on a lesser scale in my somewhat biased opinion, pero slightly faster).

Pero it wasn't a driver's car. It would NOT make you want to tack on the miles just because the driving's so fun and comfy. Also, while the CIVIC's FE is great, its sister the CRV is quite thirsty -- more than my FXT pa nga. Somewhere in there, I guess we can say the power-to-weight is the one responsible.

I've never driven an NA subby pero yung sa cousin ko na NA got slightly modded and is now as fun and comfy a drive as mine. Pero Foresters yung amin, di ko alam sa Imprezas kung iba ang suspension setup. Sa forester, pareho yata.

**Memphis Raines** · March 16th, 2008 08:56 PM

As I've always observed, Impreza owners are happy owners

**niky** · March 17th, 2008 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by archie123456789

if i was to compare civic altis and the impreza in an everyday use, impreza will certainly be more fun to drive. from a sedan, they converted the new one to a hatchback to lessen the weight. the 4wd will be easier to handle (less understir) than fwd. even if you have extra weight because of the 4wd, its for the everyday use and not meant to be raced on the tracks.

if you put in a turbo kit and other mods to the impreza then its a different story.

Well... how many times do you experience endemic understeer?

I've been reviewing cars for the past two years. And I push these cars hard. Believe you me, in normal driving (or even at the limit driving), the difference between front-wheel drive and four-wheel drive cars in terms of propensity to understeer is even less than the difference between different front-wheel drive cars. In fact, many rear wheel drive cars will understeer badly into a corner... the supposedly "sporty" Mercedes C200K being notable in this regard.

AWD only minimizes understeer midcorner... as it's easier to balance on the throttle... but it's dependent on the programming of the center differential. A Subaru has very little understeer, yes, but a Mazda6 and a Subaru Legacy have very similar handling envelopes, despite the latter being AWD.

But understeer? All cars understeer. How much depends on how "naughty" the manufacturer makes them. In this regard, a Honda Jazz, Suzuki Swift or a Ford Focus isn't very different from a Subaru Impreza in that they're all a bit "naughty".

**[archie]** · March 18th, 2008 02:11 AM

well actually, i just experienced to have understir a few months back and a friend of mine told me that sana 4wd na lang or may LSD oto mo para hindi ka naunderstir.

greater traction and control daw when you have 4wd kasi the left rear wheel tends to "free wheel" when your turning on a left curve. but with 4wd the wheels keep on spinning and you have more control of the car.