Tsikot.ph PHUV Prototype

[orly_andico]

ang alam ko coconut coir is already being used for under-carpet sound insulation.

I think part of the PhUV effort must be the fabrication of body panels. Nobody's gonna do it for you. So if you consider using pressed/formed bamboo fiber for body panels (instead of an army of panel beaters and GI sheeting...) then it would also behoove you to obtain a pulping machine.

[architect]

[FONT=Microsoft Sans Serif]i actually just arrived from batangas around the time of my posting. i'm still up, and 45 minutes away from an appointment. and, yes, i am quite a non-sleeper (i'm too old to be sleeping 6-8 hrs a day)

You mean you haven't slept? How I wish i still have your stamina. I used to pull in 24 - 36 hours of stragiht programming easily when I was much younger. But these days, I try to be an early to bed early to rise type. Although I have to admit most of my innovative ideas/designs have usually been conceived in the early hours.

interest-wise . . . with realistic caution and a healthy dose of philosophical prudence, plus a sprinkling of faith.

True that.

i have been told of an engineer who's working plastics & abaca in albay (where else). i'll see what can learn about it . who knows if some car-crazy guy (or woman) from Tawi-Tawi has already built the ideal Filipino car prototype. geniuses usually work alone.

Hmmm. Perhaps you are from Tawi-Tawi?

[dprox]

*orly_andico
Thanks for starting this relevant topic.
Flat sheetmetal panels need to be at least Ga.16 - as these have a tendency to warp with temp and time - making the shell extra heavy. Any thinner, and bulkheads or framing will be required -- still heavy.
Then, if we rule out dies and stamps as exhorbitant technology, reinforced plastic is a real answer to the weight and cost problem. However, unless you're using carbon fiber, FRP tends to be weaker than desired, so relegated to non-critical surfaces like the hood, rear canopies, and (as in Chok's case) the grille. And if your bumpers are meant-to-be-crumpled, them too.
For Bamboo Reinforced Plastic, read on, pls.

*architect
There are two colleagues who are into bamboo R&D. "Bobby" is the authority on building laminates and Jess C on R.C. uses. In both uses, the bamboo is subjected to tempering and other special processes.

We need to ascertain exactly where the local research stands, particularly if "sheetBRP" is feasible. For it to be useful in the long haul, my gut feel is that the technology should not be too sophisticated.

A possible info source is Ronnie (PROS) - di ba he works near your place? I'm sure they have some material in their library.
Bobby moved to Pque. I can take a sidetrip there sometime this week, pay him a visit if he's in town.

Assuming no full blown R&D program is prerequired, the main concerns as far as body shell is concerned is compressive and flexural strength of "sheetBRP". Bamboo fiber has excellent tensile strength, but is not known for compressive strength. So, before we use it, let's make sure an automotive bamboo laminate shell
(1) can take the forces without deforming,
(2) can take sudden impact, and will bend but not shatter,
(3) will not be too heavy,
(4) will be more economical than glass fiber,
(5) repairability.

On top of that, there is the ecological issue. The mere use of organic fibers does not give a clear advantage to BRP over FRP, ie if the same plastic chemicals are used anyway. That's because the same plastic components would still be a source of hazardous chemicals and "VOC" (volatile organic compounds) emissions. As a precaution, here's a link to "FRP Pollution Prevention Opportunities": http://www.azdeq.gov/environ/waste/p...ad/fibrweb.pdf

*Varga,
Here's a link to the state of the art in reinforced plastics. Self-reinforced PET sounds interesting. Imagine one day shaping a car out of recycled water bottles!
http://www.reinforcedplastics.com/ar...e/product.html
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/59...scription.html
If you can, get a hold of the Discovery Channel VCD on "Future Cars". Available at National Bookstore.
Spyshot: What a "Tawi-Tawi" Beetle would look like. :naughty2:

[hein]

I think part of the PhUV effort must be the fabrication of body panels. Nobody's gonna do it for you. So if you consider using pressed/formed bamboo fiber for body panels (instead of an army of panel beaters and GI sheeting...) then it would also behoove you to obtain a pulping machine.

Guys, for BODY PANELS, stick to SHEETMETAL. All the other materials aforementioned will cost more and/or take too much time to fabricate. Plus quality will be dicey.

[architect]

Guys, for BODY PANELS, stick to SHEETMETAL. All the other materials aforementioned will cost more and/or take too much time to fabricate. Plus quality will be dicey.

Hi Hein,

Thanks for the input. Would appreciate it even more if you could provide ball park cost estimates (knowing the rough dimensions and design of the target PhUV), even at least for sheetmetal. That way we can have a baseline comparison for alternative materials.

Bamboo and coconut based components are both appealing as they are indigenous and natural. But of course, as you indicated, we need to consider quality, costs and time factors. While both quality and costs are easy to quantify, cost of time is relative especially in the provinces where time measurement is not so much by the clock but by events (sunrise, sunset, etc.) or landmarks (while traveling).

[orly_andico]

But sheet metal on a small scale has no repeatability.. unless you have the necessary pressing equipment, you have to resort to an army of panel-beaters. And their output won't be repeatable (or scalable).

[varga]

hi to all

In all practicality, plastics & sheetmetal remain preferred choices for large scale vehicle production. For concept vehicles, other creatively sourced & utilised materials are very much in vogue and in acceptance in 21c car design. Since, to my understanding, the prototype PhUV will be more of a concept vehicle than a production model, (thus the use of word "prototype") exploring the use and testing the durability of the likes of bamboo, abaca etc. may still come in handy. The green design option certainly won't find as much favor as during these times of certain inconvenient truths - as long as it doesn't look like an organic object on wheels (such as a design student's (Citroën) concept of tree trunks on wheels).

. . . and the "Tawi2 Beetle" doesn't look that bad either You might have stumbled on quite a fashionable idea. Miuccia Prada might just brand her name on that vehicle.

. . . sorry, I'm sure Tawi2 is superb in its own way, but I'm way too ensconced in Makati. Just make sure the PhUV will be adapted for use in Tawi2 as well.

. . . lastly, I'm happy that the discussion is flowing along certain clear lines. Kudos to the contributors.

[eyshmechanic]

You mean you haven't slept? How I wish i still have your stamina. I used to pull in 24 - 36 hours of stragiht programming easily when I was much younger. But these days, I try to be an early to bed early to rise type. Although I have to admit most of my innovative ideas/designs have usually been conceived in the early hours.

mas ok daw yung walang tulog kesa walang gising!
sori po wala lang pong magawa di po makatiis na di sumabat he he!

i really wish that i could be able to contribute to your project, maganda yan! anyway i'll make my own research, enjoy e!

[hein]

But sheet metal on a small scale has no repeatability.. unless you have the necessary pressing equipment, you have to resort to an army of panel-beaters. And their output won't be repeatable (or scalable).

If you still resort to an army of panel beaters (lateros) like a lot of the local carmakers, then you can't have a decent presentable PhUV. Even Henry Ford used stamping machines for the body panels used in his Model T's during the early 1900's.

For CONSISTENCY (is that the word you are looking for, orly?) and COST-EFFECTIVENESS, sheetmetal is still the best material. Believe me- the car companies have experimented with alternative materials since the 1970's (remember the disastrous plastic-bodied PONTIAC FIERO?). They have always come back to the good old reliable.

Most importantly, would the market accept a car whose body is made out of bamboo or coconut fibre? It's a recipe for FINANCIAL DISASTER if you ask me.

[orly_andico]

Hein,

That was my point. If you don't have the capital for stamping machines, then perhaps molding machines would be more attainable?

No question, "latero method" really won't fly.

As for the market accepting bamboo-fiber bodied cars.. I refer you to Hermann Goering's quote about the De Havilland Mosquito light bomber.