Sound System Upgrade Suggestions for a Newbie..

[glenn manikis]

sir jhnkn... mas gaganda po ba ang sq kung papalitan ko ng seperates ang front speakers ko? what would you recommend? value for money... gusto ko talaga magandang maganda.... pero hindi naman super mahal... may nakausap po kasi ako sumasali daw sya sa mga sound competition, na subukan na daw nya lahat ng brand, etc.... yung demo product nya he compared it sa fairland na speakers vs. lightning lab na seperates... pareho lang ang sq.... then ang gamit lang nyang H.U. ay worth 500 pesos na h.u. lang... ang nagpapaganda daw eh yung mga amplifiers nya.... is this true? any H.U. will perform the same provided naka amplifiers ka? flexible naman ang budget ko ang importante sakin value for money talaga.... kahit mahal ok lang... kahit mura basta sq ng mahal naman tumunog....

[jhnkvn]

sir jhnkn... mas gaganda po ba ang sq kung papalitan ko ng seperates ang front speakers ko? what would you recommend? value for money... gusto ko talaga magandang maganda.... pero hindi naman super mahal... may nakausap po kasi ako sumasali daw sya sa mga sound competition, na subukan na daw nya lahat ng brand, etc.... yung demo product nya he compared it sa fairland na speakers vs. lightning lab na seperates... pareho lang ang sq.... then ang gamit lang nyang H.U. ay worth 500 pesos na h.u. lang... ang nagpapaganda daw eh yung mga amplifiers nya.... is this true? any H.U. will perform the same provided naka amplifiers ka? flexible naman ang budget ko ang importante sakin value for money talaga.... kahit mahal ok lang... kahit mura basta sq ng mahal naman tumunog....

Konting mahaba-haba 'to but I promise you an interesting read...

The biggest difference would be gained from the transition from stock speakers to aftermarket. No doubt about that. Next would be the inclusion of an amplifier and proper deadening of the doors. However, if you really want to pursue car audio as a hobby, the two most important criteria in SQ judging is just two: DSP (digital signal processing) and proper speaker positioning/placement. Even if you buy 200,000php worth of car audio equipments, if your tuning is wrong and installation is wrong.. I'd rather get a 5,000php worth that has proper tuning and installation.

Also, I can't recommend you any brands since hindi ko alam budget mo. Reputed brands that compete in SQ (locally) are Dominations, Focal (biggest among them all), DLS, Morel, Micro-Precision, Hertz, Audison, Phoenix Gold, etc.

Regarding sa sumasali ng sound competition and his claim, seems like BS claim to me. I doubt nasubukan na niya lahat ng brand.. even I haven't nor do I plan to since car audio is constantly evolving. Has he heard handmade Micro-Precision Z-Studio tweeters that costs 200,000php for just a pair? What about Bewith Accurate monoblocks that costs 90,000php for just 1x100W of power?

If you're comparing at a lower-bracket price tier (ex. mga nasa 5,000php) almost all products sound the same. Even when you go 10,000php upwards, it's hard to differentiate speakers at the same price bracket alone given a blind ABX test. For the money, you simply buy X speakers because of their promise to sound well. This is why branding is very important.. it differentiates people who are truly serious about this industry compared to people who simply "rides on" for profit. Take Lightning Lab for example.. you don't expect them to perform on par with Dynaudio or Focal-JMLab who employs hundreds of sound engineers just for their R&D.

The head unit is very important because it's the source of your music. You buy a proper head unit because of its tuning features (a.k.a. DSP). So unless you're investing in proper speaker placement or an external processor, the head unit is the one handling the 31-band EQ, the slopes, phasing, and just all of the tools needed for your music to sound great. If you look at our local EMMA scene, you won't find people using 5,000php Pioneer head units.. and that's the reason for it. Cheapest head unit that's SQ-worthy is the Alpine CDA-9887 which retails at 16,000php (but is already phased out) and you'll even find people competing with Alpine F1 Status or Pioneer ODR (100,000+php head unit systems) in some cases. The way I look at it, the head unit is the most important or the second most important component in the system (second only to the speakers).

[glenn manikis]

salamat sir.... i never thought car sound system is that expensive and complicated.... budget ko max lang 47K.... mapapagalitan pa ako ni mrs. nyan... he.he...

[glenn manikis]

sir... saan po pala ang the best place, position for speakers, seperates? may subs na po ako yung amplified lang nasa ilalim ng upuan... van po ang auto ko... ang original rear speakers po ng van po is located sa itaas upper head level before the ceiling... sa harap naman po nasa ibaba... the usual place ng front speakers...at pwede po bang 2 amplified subwoofer ang ikabit ko? ano po ang need kung idagdag para ppwedeng 2 ang amplified subs. ko? SQ lang naman ang habol ko...

[jhnkvn]

As for the amplifiers, this depends. If the person is competing SPL where they're competing based on loudness, the amplifier is important because it gives the speakers power. More power = more voice coils moved = higher dB scores. However, in the realm of SQ, you would simply look for amplifiers that sound "clean". When we say clean, we typically means amplifiers that have good S/N ratio given a certain power output. There are people competing in our local EMMA SQ scene using 5,000php amplifiers and still win ;)

Personally, when looking at amplifiers, I look at just two things: brand and power. Branding is self-explanatory.. I detailed them sa previous post ko. Power - because I listen to music moderately loud. Bitin ako sa 50-70W. I also look at S/N ratios to a certain degree.. but more doesn't necessarily mean better. THD%? Nah... your speakers will distort first before your amplifier will.

Take my car for example, I have two Audison VRx (4.300 and 1.500) that costs 70,000php per piece brand new. Previously, I have two very rare Xtant 2140c amplifiers that costs 20,000php back in 1995 (isipin mo how much gas was in 1995 and you'll understand it's price). Does that mean kung sumali ako sa competition eh panalo na ako dahil mahal gamit? Not necessarily. It helps.. but winning is 90% tuning/hard work and 10% equipment as many says.

Based on posts, you haven't listened to a proper "SQ" car yet. For many, SQ is simply crystal clear sound where you can hear the details. However, the proper term of "SQ" is one that has good imaging, soundstage, tonality, etc. and not just tonally. If you like the short version: a SQ car is a car that makes it as if nasa front-row ka ng concert/acoustic band session/orchestra, etc.

For a more proper definition of SQ.. here's a short link: What is Sound Quality and How is it Judged | Tutorials | Team Audionutz. If you want a more official definition, here's the EMMA rule book in judging SQ: http://www.emmanet.com/download/rule...ook07sound.pdf

As a suggestion to know "what you want". Listen to proper "SQ" first and see if its to your liking. If you're near QC's Banawe area, I can always let you listen to my car given I'm free. If not.. here's what I suggest you do: go to Shangri-La Plaza with a CD in hand (try to make sure original or high quality/320kbps mp3), go to Listening in Style, ask the owner (JR) there if you can "audition" their Dynaudio system. Now that's excellent "SQ".

[jhnkvn]

Actually, 47k is a lot na.

Personally, the best place for speakers is at the dashboard. But since most people (including me) hates tearing and cutting down the dashboard, we go for less "optimum" places. I would vote kickpanels as the second. This is because of pathlength distances.. unfortunately, hindi na ganun ka-uso ang kickpanels when it comes to audio installations because it's pretty hard to do (I believe the best installer that does kickpanels locally is RJ who's a former US IASCA champion but major car audio shops also offer the service) and because we now have the "time alignment" feature on head units.

Since we do not want to have extensive installs as these are expensive, the best is to simply use the stock door locations diba? This is where the head unit comes into play. To get a proper soundstage -- the speaker at the center of the dashboard and the dash is the "stage", you need time alignment. Cheapest unit out there as I dictated is the Alpine CDA-9887 which should retail secondhand at around 10k (I can point you where to find these via PMs if requested).

This is where it gets tricky. Some people can't seem to justify the cost of a 10k head unit and wouldn't opt to get a better head unit and they simply buy "better" speakers. I find this wrong as you are not getting the best out of your system. So, with 37k, I'll deduct 10k from that to 27k and use the 27k for my equipments. From hereon, you should look at car audio shop "packages" within 27k so you won't exceed that budget with misc. expenses such as labor, woodworks, etc.

[glenn manikis]

sir jhnkvn san po sa banawe shop nyo?

[jhnkvn]

sir jhnkvn san po sa banawe shop nyo?

I don't own any car audio shop. I'm a consumer like you din so I've been on that stage na rin where some gurus also helped me build my own system. I'm simply giving back ;)

Then again, I'm affiliated also with Mickeys Autosound as I'm on their "team" although I'm not competing (a lot are urging me though pero baka next year na) As well as an extra honorary member of Team Dominations-Sands-Danish Acoustics

On why Banawe, it's because I live near the area and Banawe is the mecca of car enthusiasts.. It's a pain to go to Old Banawe (due to Q.Ave road construction) but "New" Banawe is super close.. the Starbucks in Banawe is like.. 2 minutes away by car.

[meikey]

Nice read on sir jhnkvn's post...

Been following his thread for quite sometime and had learned so much...

hehehehe, natamaan ako sa Headunit na issue. In my quest to preserve a stock looking cabin, I compromised the headunit aspect and opt to go to OEM Chinas. Only then that I notice that sound quality isn't that good when I had my amp & sub installed.

It was a costly mistake but non the less, with the new headunit and a set of entry level focal seps, I am enjoying the new setup up now... It lacks few details, but it is where my budget could produce...

[glenn manikis]

sir jhnkvn... may demo unit yung car accesories shop (fairview) na pinuntahan ko jbl seperates front worth 6.3k at 6x9 sa likod naka install sa starex.... den H.U pioneer... hindi ko gusto.... sir much much better pa tumunog yung sakin pag dating sa sq, clarity pati bass etc.(pioneer h.u. ko.. stock speakers paper type pa nga yun then yung isa hindi pa gumagana... at 6x9 class A rear speakers) ... ang naka install lang po sakin eh yung NBN na 8" na amplified subwoofer with tweeter.... mas maganda po tumunog pa yung sakin...

sir bakit ganun? hindi po ba maganda ang pagkakatono ng sound system nila? sir i might go for targa nalang or lightning lab na seperates.... or pwede ko bang dagdagan ang amplified subwoofer ko? paano gagawin ko po? ano po bang tweeter ang recommend nyo? ang balak ko po maglagay ng isang set sa dashboard at isang set naman sa likod above the head of the driver sa may a.c.?

[jhnkvn]

sir jhnkvn... may demo unit yung car accesories shop (fairview) na pinuntahan ko jbl seperates front worth 6.3k at 6x9 sa likod naka install sa starex.... den H.U pioneer... hindi ko gusto.... sir much much better pa tumunog yung sakin pag dating sa sq, clarity pati bass etc.(pioneer h.u. ko.. stock speakers paper type pa nga yun then yung isa hindi pa gumagana... at 6x9 class A rear speakers) ... ang naka install lang po sakin eh yung NBN na 8" na amplified subwoofer with tweeter.... mas maganda po tumunog pa yung sakin...

sir bakit ganun? hindi po ba maganda ang pagkakatono ng sound system nila? sir i might go for targa nalang or lightning lab na seperates.... or pwede ko bang dagdagan ang amplified subwoofer ko? paano gagawin ko po? ano po bang tweeter ang recommend nyo? ang balak ko po maglagay ng isang set sa dashboard at isang set naman sa likod above the head of the driver sa may a.c.?

In most cases, it's the tuning. You should have seen the wonders of basic tone controls (treble, mid, bass) on my sister's Mazda3. If they're all flat, they sound terribly horrible. In most cases, people love a U-shaped frequency curve namely boosts in bass and treble. But also in your case, the 8" amplified subwoofer gives a lot of bass "impact" people want.

There are alot of questions there I cannot answer but will try to do so:

targa vs jbl separates
Like I said in previous posts, I wouldn't fret about this. Most components sound the same at this price range. Any component that is tuned will sound better than an untuned component. JBL is a sound powerhouse so I like it more.. but Targa isn't far off. Yun mga binibili niyong Sony, JVC, etc. component systems sa Raon? Those are using Targa speakers since Targa is a low-cost OEM speaker manufacturer.

pwede ko bang dagdagan ang amplified subwoofer ko?
Personally, I'm not a fan of amplified subwoofers. I find them too... simple for my taste. In my case, I would like the flexibility of me choosing the amplifier to power my subwoofer. Besides, unless you really really need the space, hindi sila sulit. Why? Limited air space for the subwoofer. In most cases, a properly deadened door with a good 6" midbass can do far better than a 8" amplified sub.

ano po bang tweeter ang recommend nyo?
I cannot answer this because the tweeter you're gonna buy is part of the separate component system you'll be buying. If you're talking about materials, metal-based tweeters (ex. titanium) reproduce excellent detail but are usually harsh to the ears while the tweeters I really love are silk dome tweets (more specifically: Dynaudio Esotar2 tweets) which sound very warm and airy.

ang balak ko po maglagay ng isang set sa dashboard at isang set naman sa likod above the head of the driver sa may a.c.?
Set sa dashboard - seems good. Set above the head of the driver - uhh... refer to last post.

paano gagawin ko po?
Basing on your post, nawawala/naliligaw ka. The first thing I suggest for you is to hear a good SQ setup (I'll PM you later for this one so I can point you where). And from then on, you can build your system.

Paano ko nasabi na naliligaw ka?
The statement "isang set naman sa likod above the head of the driver sa may a.c.?". Based on this post alone, sure ako hindi ka pa nakakarining ng "SQ". This is because more isn't better. In fact, having more drivers than simple separates at the front gives you a harder time.

YGPM pare.. 47k is a big amount. I applaud you for at least taking the time to "invest" in this hobby by researching, auditioning, etc. before spending that amount of money.

[glenn manikis]

sir ano po ba ang specs AT ANO po ba meron sa PIONEER H.U. at alpine at bakit po mas maganda ito tumunog compare sa ibang H.U.?

ive seen an audio audition they use only card reader at usb lang po..... sabi nga nila it doesnt matter much daw ang H.U. (i DONT believe this... THATS B.S.) kasi daw nasa rms lang daw yun... sabi ko nga eh paano naman yung ibang laman ng H.U.... SABI nya kung ang gagamitin ko daw na mga speakers eh yung nasa low to middle class lang daw pwede na daw yung H.U. NA ordinary at kung hndi naman daw ako maguupgrade ng high end speakers na like nasa 100k daw eh... pwede na daw yung h.u. na tig 4k lang.. at yung amplifier daw ang nag dridrive ng speakers... malamang kaya hindi nila naririnig ang pagkakaiba sa mamahalin na H.U. SA Mura kasi hindi sila AUDIO SOUNDS EXPERTS? OR baka po nabingi NA SILA? no kidding aside...

[jhnkvn]

sir ano po ba ang specs AT ANO po ba meron sa PIONEER H.U. at alpine at bakit po mas maganda ito tumunog compare sa ibang H.U.?

ive seen an audio audition they use only card reader at usb lang po..... sabi nga nila it doesnt matter much daw ang H.U. (i DONT believe this... THATS B.S.) kasi daw nasa rms lang daw yun... sabi ko nga eh paano naman yung ibang laman ng H.U.... SABI nya kung ang gagamitin ko daw na mga speakers eh yung nasa low to middle class lang daw pwede na daw yung H.U. NA ordinary at kung hndi naman daw ako maguupgrade ng high end speakers na like nasa 100k daw eh... pwede na daw yung h.u. na tig 4k lang.. at yung amplifier daw ang nag dridrive ng speakers... malamang kaya hindi nila naririnig ang pagkakaiba sa mamahalin na H.U. SA Mura kasi hindi sila AUDIO SOUNDS EXPERTS? OR baka po nabingi NA SILA? no kidding aside...

I'll buy a head unit based on its tuning features. Like how a carpenter needs his tools to finish his work thoroughly, the SQ guy will be needing the likes of EQ, T/A, crossovers for his car to sound good. You can go two routes on this: (A) buy a head unit with all these features or (B) buy a simple head unit and STILL throw some add-ons that can do it.

By the time you're looking for these so called "audiophile" head units, they'll be advertising you their copper-plated chassis, their 8V pre-outs *cough* Eclipse *cough*, their good internal guts such as Burr Brown DACs and the list goes on and on. But I'll be practical, although it's true that getting a Pioneer P99RS (37-40k PHP) would sound cleaner (better S/N ratio) than your typical Pioneer deck that costs 4,000php, I'm buying the head unit because of its tuning features -- its L/R independent EQ, ability to do -32db slopes, etc. because at the end of the day, those are the ones responsible for unleashing the potential of the speakers.

Alternatively, getting the 4,000php Pioneer head unit is also good.. but you'd be needing SOMETHING that can tune the sound. This can be via an external processor such as the Audison BitOne (30k) or you can do it how the people in the 90s used to do -- via an independent L/R Audiocontrol EQ for the EQ and T/A and onboard crossovers from the amplifiers or external crossovers (for the crossovers).

Most important here is the feature of time alignment. Because in this day and age, anybody trying to compete in SQ competitions without time alignment is like trying to win the Olympics using an artificial leg. Not impossible.. but god damn near impossible. For most of us, without time alignment, you'll never get proper staging and imaging and by doing that, you fail 2/3 SQ criterias already!

To get good audio out of a car, your enemy is your car environment since it literally wrecks the sound. Our aim in car audio is to negate the car environment through the use of these tuning features such as EQ, phase, etc. so we can liken our sound to that in home audio.

Ganito lang yan in short:
1. You can get 100k speakers, 100k amplifiers, and 4k head unit alone but you'll NEVER win any SQ competitions without extensive installs amounting up to 80k+.

2. Or you can get a 10k speakers, 10k amplifier, 16k head unit (Alpine 9887) and simple installs amounting 10-20k, and you CAN win.

[jhnkvn]

I am a very practical and bang-per-buck guy. Hell, I normally buy my amplifiers second-hand or even third-hand para lang hindi tumama saakin yun depreciation. As for car audio, I'm not a guru as I still continue to learn new things even now.. I might not have won any EMMA legs nor have I have a million peso to purchase a Bewith Sunrise set but after investing more than 300k in this hobby, I'm pretty sure where I've gone wrong (and how you can avoid it) and where I can improve (having access to a dedicated home theatre with 800k speakers helps too *wink*). I don't really need to win to prove that my car sounds better than others because at the end of the day, I tune my car according to what I want -- this means a silky highs and a bit more bass than most SQ people would like.

Point is: Don't overspend in car audio and simply maximize what you have. But if you have an unusually fat wallet, then by all means go buy the external DAC I placed below para lalo pa gumanda tunog mo :naughty2: (this is a Bewith Mirror-Station Bianco Fuji by the way)



===

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[sachiel]

A very well made unbiased guide for newbies and professionals. The mods should sticky this thread.

I'm only upgrading to a JBL speakers worth 5k for my ride haha. I'm one of the normal consumers in this field but I know a good sound system when I hear one but only for home theaters. We have a Focal speakers in our home setup and it's very good. But like you said, I don't want to invest in something that I have no experience yet so I will start with this simple upgrade. Will compare it to the stock speakers of our E150 and S-class if it has an improvement.

[monty_GTV]

mga sirs, matanong ko lang po mga nag-upgrade na ng mga sound system na under warranty pa...

kapag po ba nagpalit tayo ng stock speakers ay anong warranty ang ma void? sound system warranty lang po ba o buong electrical system na ng car?

same HU lang po at yung front/rear speakers lang ang papalitan. additional installation ay amplifier + deadening ng doors.

TIA sa reply...

[jhnkvn]

mga sirs, matanong ko lang po mga nag-upgrade na ng mga sound system na under warranty pa...

kapag po ba nagpalit tayo ng stock speakers ay anong warranty ang ma void? sound system warranty lang po ba o buong electrical system na ng car?

same HU lang po at yung front/rear speakers lang ang papalitan. additional installation ay amplifier + deadening ng doors.

TIA sa reply...

Answer: A certain portion of your electrical warranty. Not just your sound system as you [i]may[/] modify other electrical systems within the car while upgrading.

For most, if it's just stock speakers to aftermarket then you hid them in stock speaker locations, most CASAs would be hard-pressed to know you tampered with it so paminsan nalulusotan mo pa yan. However, once you throw in an amplifier.. it's very much halata na

[monty_GTV]

Answer: A certain portion of your electrical warranty. Not just your sound system as you [i]may[/] modify other electrical systems within the car while upgrading.

For most, if it's just stock speakers to aftermarket then you hid them in stock speaker locations, most CASAs would be hard-pressed to know you tampered with it so paminsan nalulusotan mo pa yan. However, once you throw in an amplifier.. it's very much halata na

thanks sir jhnkvn. upon further inquiry, the CASA told my wife that we will void all the electrical warranty once we install an amplifier more than 125W rating.

for the upgrade, i have my eye on a morel tempo or one of the more pricy focal polyglass components. hopefully the HU is capable enough to bring out an SQ upgrade with any of the two speaker brands. for the amplifier, maybe i'll pick a 4ch similar brand as the front speakers. for the rear, i think i keep the stock for now and upgrade later. and the subwoofer, not keen on the boom boom type so it may come later as well. i read on other posts that a properly tuned front speakers and a deadened doors will already give enough bass.

[jhnkvn]

thanks sir jhnkvn. upon further inquiry, the CASA told my wife that we will void all the electrical warranty once we install an amplifier more than 125W rating.

for the upgrade, i have my eye on a morel tempo or one of the more pricy focal polyglass components. hopefully the HU is capable enough to bring out an SQ upgrade with any of the two speaker brands. for the amplifier, maybe i'll pick a 4ch similar brand as the front speakers. for the rear, i think i keep the stock for now and upgrade later. and the subwoofer, not keen on the boom boom type so it may come later as well. i read on other posts that a properly tuned front speakers and a deadened doors will already give enough bass.

Hmm, that's pretty sad. It might also be a good idea to call up other casas to ask whether what are their "limitations". Generally, once you venture into car audio, it's best to say that your entire electrical warranty is forfeit. Kung gusto mo maging makulit, ask what 125W is Since 125W at 4ohms is different from 125W at 8ohms (the latter more powerful).

Focal Polyglass separates have already been phased out and has been replaced by the Performance lineup. I believe one of the best recommendations at 10k is the Focal PS165. In addition, buy from authorized Focal dealers. Madami fakes going around ;) Once you have your basic front separates, an amplifier, and a subwoofer and STILL want more, your bottleneck is the stock head unit na.

[monty_GTV]

Hmm, that's pretty sad. It might also be a good idea to call up other casas to ask whether what are their "limitations". Generally, once you venture into car audio, it's best to say that your entire electrical warranty is forfeit. Kung gusto mo maging makulit, ask what 125W is Since 125W at 4ohms is different from 125W at 8ohms (the latter more powerful).

Focal Polyglass separates have already been phased out and has been replaced by the Performance lineup. I believe one of the best recommendations at 10k is the Focal PS165. In addition, buy from authorized Focal dealers. Madami fakes going around ;) Once you have your basic front separates, an amplifier, and a subwoofer and STILL want more, your bottleneck is the stock head unit na.

thanks sir jhnkvn, i agree with you that once we venture into car audio upgrade, most likely the entire electrical warranty will be voided. i am based overseas and don't have the leisure to ask other casa's limitations. i'll be home mid-July and i already made up my mind to upgrade the audio of my ride...

well, i don't know that polyglass seps had already been phased out. aside from mickeys autosound, do you know sir other Focal authorized dealer? i called mickey autosound last week and i spoke to sir mickey himself, asked for qoutations and he's very accomodating naman. yeah, i think i'm heading to that, seps/ampli then subs/ampli then change HU na malamang...